Bula Vinaka, Malo Lelei & Talofa Lava

I was wondering if their were any intermarriages between Fijian Royal Families & Samoan Royal Families? I can only think of 1 or 2 but I wanted to ask before opening my mouth lol more info would be great.....

Soifua

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Alia & Vai

I must say brothers that you are both very passionate about your own perspectives of ancient history. The Tongan and Samoan in me wants to wade into the debate but split as to which side to take! I thought that this thread was about connections between us all? My Fijian side is calm and assured knowing that you are both right and both wrong! Forgive me brothers and please don't take this the wrong way, but there is an African proverb (for neutralities sake!) that goes: when two bull elephants fight, only the grass gets hurt!

Uso mo tokoua, "o le ala i le pule le tautua" (Samoan - the path to leadership is service/humility) - "Tonga mo'unga kihe loto" (Tongan - The mountains of Tonga are in the heart) Remember, only God ruled the Pacific and Tagaloa, Tu'i Manu'a, Tu'i Tonga or whoever, were at the end of the day men like you and me.

Let's respect our Fijian hosts on this network with a little bit of understanding, patience and humility fa'amolemole - kataki... afterall, these are traits that signify true nobility in our old ways. Back in the not too distant past these kinds of debates were not held from the safety of a screen and keyboard, but face to face and at the peril of the club and spear as we all know. Lets not escalate things into arguing and conduct unbecomming of men. I know I am only a newcomer here, but it is a little disappointing to see the tone of some of the arguements sliding close to animosity over something that at the end of the day, really doesn't matter.

Our Fijian kin have been very civil and humble in this thread started by our resident and knowledgable Samoan historian and guru Alia. Agree to disagree and move on.

Tu'a 'ofa atu

Moatunu
"Tala pea ngali" - be/act as you say
Just to detract and take a new line I wonder if someone could elaborate on the following for me. Fijian traditions talk of a God they called Degei or Ndegei. I came across a very old edition of the Journal of the Polynesian Society with an article that linked this figure to very old settlements in Viti Levu. It argues that Degei was old Fijian for Tagaloa, can anyone comment on this?

Malo

Chief yam planter
Moatunu
In Fijian mythology, Degei (pronounced Ndengei) is a snake-god. He judges newly-dead souls after they pass through one of two caves: Cibaciba or Drakulu. A few he sends to paradise, Burotu. Most others are thrown into a lake, where they will eventually sink to the bottom (Murimuria) to be appropriately rewarded or punished.
Degei hatched an egg from which the first humans came to Earth. He is prominent in the kalou-vu, the Fijian pantheon.
Friedrich Ratzel in The History of Mankind[1] reported in 1896 a religious practice enjoined by Degei that involved tatooing women on the lower part of the body and the thigh, the corner of the mouth, and the finger.
From Wikipedia.
Malo Sione

this is very interesting because there has been much conjecture over the origins of the tatau in Samoa with two primary versions (i. two women from Fiji ii. Fitiuta in Manu'a). It would be great to explore the links because I have a genealogical chart that shows the two women called Tilafaiga and Taema are of the Tagaloa line, they brought the tatau to Falealupo Savaii from Fiti (Fiji or Manu'a depending on the version).

'Alia will know more about this than me but I recall from reading "History of Samoa" by Br Fred Henry many years ago that the two women were actually sisters and Siamese twins joined at the hip (snake-like i.e. Degei?) perhaps the result of in-breeding or kitetama in Tonga? They were apparently violently separated. Tilafaiga remained in Falealupo and had a child to another demi-god Savea Siule'o (Havea Hikule'o in Tonga - also god of the underwold in Tonga and the Tu'i Tonga was this god's high priest/earthly representative like the Pope during the Inasi festival). Their child was the famous godess of war Nafanua who married back into the same Tagaloa line - kitetama (a Hawaiian practice called Ni'opau? elevated the blood rank many times over). Taema became a feared devil-like apparition who travelled to Tutuila and lived there. This is why Tutuila is also known as Motu 'o Taema where people were banished at one point at the mercy of Taema.

Kitetama (brother-sister/cross cousin marriages) became rife in Tonga soon after TT Momo in a bizzare turn of events that saw the Tu'i Tonga becoming increasingly threatened at home. In order to elevate the rank of his line further, Momo's son Tu'itatui (mother was not of exceedingly high rank and already mothered children to the Chief of Malapo, her name was Nua daugher of Lo'au - possibly a foreigner from Eastern Polynesia/Hawaii?) is said to have raped his sister Tu'i Tonga Fefine Fatafehi on top of the Ha'amonga 'a Maui. This is why he was overthrown and chased out by some accounts and some even say he was killed by the his half-brothers and full brothers of Fatafehi. Testament to this is the fact that to this day there is debate over where his body is buried. Some say in 'Eua, others in Malapo (mother's kin) and more recently in Felemea/'Uiha.

I have also heard accounts from old people in kava cirlces in Tonga say that he died in 'Eua but his body was not accepted there for burial so his rotted corpse was taken from place to place and to this day no one knew exactly where he was finally buried. Recent excavations in Felemea uncovered bones of a giant who stood over 8 feet tall. Noble Fielakepa of the time, took pictures with the remains and it is believed to be that of Tu'itatui, in a small island in Ha'apai buried in a humble mound. Niutoua people have accounts of Tu'itatui being a huge man and if you go to the Ha'amonga 'o Maui meaning burden of maui (Ha'amo = a burden taken on your shoulders), at the back is his seat made of rock called the Makafa'akinanga, he must have had a huge back because it is massive.

Vinaka vakalevu

Moatunu
Malo Moatonu

Tatau Samoa:

The legends of Samoa describe how two sisters, Tilafaiga and Taema were sent from Manu'a to Fiji to visit the daughter of King Tuimanu'a. While there, they were presented with a gift from the royal family of King Tuifiti which was a tattooing instrument. While swimming home they carefully held onto their precious gift while singing a chant that the Fijians had taught them translating it into Samoan. In English, the chant would say "women are tattooed and men are not."

They were very exhausted when they arrived home and in their confusion they reversed the chant singing the first part last. When they reached Savai'i, they were carried into the high chief's guest house and were treated like royalty until they have recovered from their swim. Before continuing their swim to Manu'a, they offered to the chiefs and the people of Savai'i the tattooing instruments that have been a gift from King Tuifiti.

The people of Savai'i started at once to tattoo the young men as they had learned from the reversed chant. Tattooing became the mark of distinction among the youths of Samoa except Manu'a where the king ruled against the practice.

The original song was to tattoo the woman that is why some of the designs of the Samoan Women Tattoo have some Fijian Designs but the male Tattoo of Samoa doesn't.
Malo Moatonu

Bro I was wondering if Tui Manu'a (FOLASA) was the same person in Tonga known as Tui FOLAHA? Tongan History states Folaha had power in Tonga before Ahoeitu the 1st Tui Tonga. This is just adding on from the Fale Faka Manuka or Manu'a Houses built in Tonga.
Some of these rulers of Tonga named here could be from Manu'a.

1) Talafale, Tu'i Ha'atalafale.
2) Tu'i Loloko.
3) Malupo.
4) Tu'i Folaha.
5) Matakehe.
6) 'Ahoe'itu, who became the 1st Tu'i Tonga son of 'Ilaheva

1) Talafale means voice of the house or advisor in Samoan etc but could it be another word for Tulafale which in Samoa means High Talking Chief or Orator? Tonga had no Royal Line until Ahoeitu and the only Royal Line that was already established in Polynesia was the Tui Manu'a Line of Chiefs. If Talafale was an adviser the question is who sent him?
Uso

in the main Tongan accounts relating to the Tu'i Tonga origins the father of 'Aho'eitu (Asoaitu) is Tangaloa 'Eitumatupu'a. Using heliaki or metaphor-indirect speech, he is said to have resided in "Langi" or in the heavens, at this period, argued by some to be either Tongatapu, Savai'i, Manu'a and even Fisi/Vitilevu. Really doesn't matter where as it is a reference to his place of "residence" at the time and not necessarily his place of "origin".

The account of 'Aho'eitu querying who his father was suggests this as heliaki for disputed lineages and rank amongst Tangaloa's many offspring. His mothers advice for him to climb a toa tee to the sky is also heliaki. Trees are symbolic of many things, they are also metaphors or symbols. This heliaki could be symbolic of a voyage on a Tongiaki/Voyaging vessel or a struggle or warfare especially since the Toa or ironwood tree was used in Tonga for making war clubs (povai) and spearpoints (tao) due to its weight and hardness of the wood. Remember, one should not take our myths and legends literally as they are often simplified versions of complex accounts using heliaki and even riddles so that these accounts are easier to remember and recited for generations to untangle.

When he reaches langi (either through epic struggle in battle or voyaging) he finds his father and is introduced to his half brothers to a different mother (called uho tau/uso tau or uho taha/uso tasi if different fathers but same mother). These brothers were said to be "older" heliaki also for higher in rank. Their mother was a woman called Tamapo'uli. This could be a key to much of the mystery as to the origins of Tangaloa 'Eitumatupu'a himself.

Tamapo'uli is recognised in Tonga as a foreign woman from outside of Tongatapu and from one of the many islands of the nation we now refer to as Samoa. At this time, the name for the grouping of islands did not exist. Tonga, Savai'i, 'Upolu, Niua, Manu'a etc... were known individually as such. The inference here is that this particular Tongan account suggests that if the wife of Tangaloa 'Eitumatupu'a is refered to as a foreigner than he must have had local origins.

'Aho'eitu's mother was Va'epopua 'Ilaheva, daughter of Seketo'a, High Chief of Niua (is one of a number of versions). Again, this infers union with a "foreign" line given Niua at this time was not part of what we now know as Tonga. "Tonga" at this time was purely a reference to the main island now known as Tongatapu "fished up" with the fishing hook from Manu'a (could be heliaki for political establishment or reorganisation of the older system to a new form - Eastern Polynesian influence?).

What exactly occured during this time may never fully be known but there are clues. It is said that when 'Aho'eitu met his half-brothers they started a spear throwing competition (sika) that 'Aho'eitu won convincingly (heliaki). He was then attacked, killed and eaten by his jealous brothers. After being brought back to life by his father via a kumete mixing the regurgitated body parts with water and sacred leaves (heliaki for imbuing sacred mana/tapu onto him - blessing) his father rebukes his other older sons: Talafale the eldest follwed by Tu'i Loloko, Malupo, Tu'i Folaha and Matakehe.

'Aho'eitu is made the first Tu'i Tonga (just of Tongatapu itself at this time) Talafale becomes Tu'i Faleua (King of the second house) and forbidden to ever become Tu'i Tonga unless the line of 'Aho'eitu fails. The other brothers are given matapule-tulafale like roles and were called the Falefa (House of four) to forever serve the Tu'i Tonga, they are still referred to in Tonga as "foreigners". Together, 'Aho'eitu and his five half-brothers were sometimes referred to by some accounts as the "Pouono" or six posts as in the village that bears the same name in Vava'u.

Again, these are just some perspectives and all of these are based on oral accounts handed down from generation to generation so are prone to errors and misinterpretation. There are also many versions.

Soifua

Moatunu
Malo Moatunu

I notice alot of Ancient rulers in Tonga were considered foreigners could you explain the foreigner named Tui Haamea (Loau) some say Tui Haamea came from Samoa and that their was an alliance between Tui Haamea Loau and Tui Tonga Momo which started an Empire but this alliance between Samoa & Tonga did not last long.

Another thing bro the Tui Aana, Tui Atua, & Tui Manu'a Lines of Samoa were established long before the Tui Tonga line was established.

Check this out FALEFA UPOLU Samoa. Falefa consisted of the villages Sanonu, Sagapolu, Saleapaga and Leatifasou - the house of the four. Falefa is situated on the north coast of Upolu and was one of the most distinguished capitals of chiefs. Falefa was one of the strongholds of the Safenunuivao family. Various holders of the Tui Atua title lived at or near Falefa, the most famous being Leutelele'i'iti, with whom many Falefa traditions are associated.

Another thing to look at the name SA(MOA) or HAA(MOA) it is the Ancient Family name of the Tui Manu'a Line of Chiefs.

TONGA means SOUTH in Various Polynesian Languages but if you listen to the story of Maui TONGA also got its name from TUI MANU'A.
Alia,

As reminded to us by our fellow matavuvale members to keep it positive. So here we go.....

HIP HIP HOORAY FOR SAMOA!!! LOL

'OFA ATU
Vai
Malo Vai maybe this will help you:

SAMOA INFLUENCE

In Ancient Polynesia Tui Manu'a Chiefs & other Samoan Chiefs
stretched Samoan rule and influence across the pacific to islands such
as Tonga, Niuafo'ou, Niuatoputapu, Tafahi, Niue, The Marquesas, Rotuma, the Cook Islands, Uvea, Futuna, Tokelau, Rurutu, Hawaii, Kiribati, Tuvalu, Tikopia, Pukapuka, Nukuoro, Kapingamarangi, Nukumanu, Sikaina etc......

In the case of Tonga Ahoeitu the 1st Tui Tonga is the one who started to free and separate Tonga from Samoan Domination/Rule.

THE EFFECTS OF ANCIENT SAMOAN INFLUENCE IN TONGA:

1) The Samoan Matai System becomes apart of the Tongan Culture
2) Samoan Taualuga becomes apart of the Tongan Culture
3) Samoan Otuhaka becomes apart of the Tongan Culture
4) Samoan Ma'ulu'ulu becomes apart of the Tongan Culture
5) Samoan Ula becomes apart of Tongan Culture
6) The Samoan Chiefly Dialect becomes apart of the the Tongan Royal
Families Dialect.

7) The Metupaki was adopted from Uvea but Tongans originally chanted in the Samoan language while doing the metupaki but nowadays the Chant is a mixture of both Samoan & Tongan.

8) Manu'a Houses of Eastern Samoa were Anciently built throughout Tonga
called Fale Faka Manuka.

9) Many Islands in Tonga speak a language mixed with SAMOAN such as the islands of Niuafo'ou, Niuatoputapu, Tafahi & Uvea.

10) Niuafo'ou, Niuatoputapu, Tafahi Anciently were apart of SAMOA.

Tonga later freed herself from Samoa and later gained power in Polynesia starting with the 10th Tui Tonga Momo.

SAMOAN INFLUENCE IN HAWAII

Hawaiian King David Kalakaua's List Of Hawaiian Kings:

Pilikaeae ..........From SAMOA ( with PA'AO ).....1095 to 1120 AD.
Kukohau ..........1120 to 1145
Kaniuhi ..........145 to 1170
Kanipahu ..........1170 to 1195
Kalapana (including the usurpation of Kamaiole)........1195 to 1220
Kahaimoelea ..........1220 to 1260
Kalaunuiohua ..........1260 to 1300
Kuaiwa ..........1300 to 1340
Kahoukapu ..........1340 to 1380
Kauholanuimahu ..........1380 to 1415
Kiha ..........1415 to 1455
Liloa ..........1455 to 1485
Hakau ..........1485 to 1490
Umi ..........1490 to 1525
Kealiiokaloa ..........1525 to 1535
Keawenui ..........1535 to 1565
Kaikilani and Lonoikamakahiki ..........1565 to 1595
Keakealanikane ..........1595 to 1625
Keakamahana ..........1625 to 1655
Keakealaniwahine ..........1655 to 1685
Keawe and sister ..........1685 to 1720
Alapanui ..........1720 to 1754
Kalaniopuu ..........1754 to 1782
Kamehameha I ..........1782 to 1819
Kamehameha II -- Liholiho ..........1819 to 1824
Kaahumanu regency ..........1824 to 1833
Kamehameha III - Kauikeaouli ..........1833 to 1854
Kamehameha IV ..........1854 to 1863
Kamehameha V.- Lot ..........1863 to 1872
Lunalilo ..........1872 to 1873
Kalakaua ..........1874 to ---

Pili & Paao of Samoa ruled Hawaii and also took new Religions to Hawaii.

SAMOAN INFLUENCE IN THE COOK ISLANDS:


Tui Manu'a Alia Matua left Manu'a with his followers due to a dispute
between him and his brother Tui Manu'a Alia Tama. Tui Manu'a Alia Matua
was known in the Cook Islands as a Great Warrior the Cook Islanders
called him KARIKA. He sailed the ocean in a Samoan Alia (War Canoe)
called Vaafasifolau which means canoe for slaughtering voyages. He and
his crew landed in RaroTonga and ruled RaroTonga.

The Makea Karika Kings of the Cook Islands descended from Karika of Samoa. The
famous Canoe of the Cook Islands called Te Au O Tonga is named after the
district Karika Ruled.

SAMOAN INFLUENCE KIRIBATI ISLANDS:

Traditional KIRIBATI legend tells of the spirits moving from Samoa to the Gilbert Islands. The spirits became half human and half spirit, and then a long time later changed into human beings. Many people in Kiribati believe their ancestors to be spirits, some from Samoa, and some from the Gilberts.

Within these islands a Micronesia culture developed (though not called Micronesian until the Europeans later introduced this name), it was also infused with elements from Polynesian and Melanesian culture from invasions by neighboring nations such as Samoa, Tonga and Fiji. The culture was also influenced through inter-marriages between theses countries, and later mainly from the influence of 'Polynesian' pastors.

FUTUNA

After being settled came under the influence and rule of SAMOA

TAFAHI TONGA


Tafahi Tonga people claim their island was created by a Samoan Demon who dropped a Niua mountain half way back to SAMOA.

TOKELAU ISLANDS

Tokelau was populated for around 1000 years, with traditional tales linking there Ancient Polynesian Ancestors with Samoa, the Cook Islands and Tuvalu.

TUVALU ISLANDS

Tuvalu claims their earlier ancestors came mostly from Samoa, possibly by way of Tokelau, while others came from Tonga and Uvea (Wallis Island). These settlers were all Polynesians with the exception of Nui where many people are descendants of Micronesians from Kiribati.

NUKUORO

Nukuoro claims their original rulers & Ancestors came from SAMOA.

ROTUMA FIJI

Rotuma Fiji claim a Samoan Chief named Raho came to their islands and sprinkled Savaii soil on Rotuma to claim Rotuma as his island.

TIKOPIA

Tikopia Anciently was regarded as a colony of Samoa


(THIS IS JUST SOME OF THE INFLUENCE SAMOA HAD ON POLYNESIA. I WILL POST MORE LATER).
Just a correction there Alia..................Fiji had no relation or connection to Rotuma during the early ages.They were not conquered nor were visited from Fiji.

It was only during the Missionary days that Rotuma finally decided to CEDE their Group of Islands to Fiji by the continuous mission work by the Methodist Missionaries.Rotuma then whole heartedly came into the Church.The Methodist Church of Fiji then adopted a new name to ''VITI KEI ROTUMA'' for administration purposes.VITI and ROTUMA becomes one through the Church well before the Brittish Administration.

During the colonial days when Fiji began being colonised and modernised by the Brittish Rotuma was included too because they had been part of the main church in Fiji already.
Fiji never severed its relation with Rotuma nor Rotuma with Fiji.To do this will be against the work of the Church.During this hard and dark days when Fiji is undergoing severe political upheavals Rotuma remains honest with us along the way!

Their accounts of history before Christianity remains with them and we(Fiji) never claimed anything of Rotuma but are proud of the work of our missionaries to the Rotumans.

In the year 2008 Rev Jone Langi a Rotuman passed away while being the President of the Methodist Church of Fiji and Rotuma.

My little version of Rotuma and Fiji but remains to be corrected!

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