I was wondering if their were any intermarriages between Fijian Royal Families & Samoan Royal Families? I can only think of 1 or 2 but I wanted to ask before opening my mouth lol more info would be great.....
yes, I think Maile Latamai Finau is most likely the one who must have gifted the club to Vaha'i (makes sense as he moved to Fiji). Another version of the origins of the Mohekonokono povai (war club) points to more ancient origins of the club from the Tu'i Tonga line, but this is not likely given the lack of supporting historical accounts. Another is that it was a gift from the Ha'a Latuhifo chief Nuku to his son Vaha'ifefeka I, ancestor of the current Vaha'i chiefs.It might be that this is the trus origins of the club and that it was taken by Maile Latamai with him to Fiji in his wars and then later returned to Tonga.
I checked the Tu'i Pelehake line of descent matching it with contemporary figures in my mothers genealogy table and my best estimate is Maile Latamai Finau must have left Tonga for fiji around the 1750's. This also matches Tongan accounts of a "Finau Fisi" (probably Maile Latamai) ramapantly waging war throughout Vitilevu soon after this time. This also correlates with the account of the war-club Mohekonokono being already in the posession of Vaha'i well before the Civil War in 1799 which started when Tu'i Kanokupolu Tuku'aho is assassinated by Tupouniua and 'Finau 'Ulukalala and where Vaha'i battled these two foes to glory at the famous battles of Taufakalelemoa and Tau he Toafa. The great fortress of Feletoa in Vava'u built by Toe'umu the aunt of Finau 'Ulukalala in rebellion against her nephew's complicity in the murder of his own half brother Tupouniua, was probably modelled on the great hill fort of Tavuni, stronghold of Maile Latamai.
Here's how I tracked the approximate timeline:
Sela Mounukiuoleva Tupou Tu'amoheloa Lua (my mother) - born 1950
Tevita Moheloa Tu'amoheloa (my grandfather) born born 1905
ggrandfather - Sione Nginingini Ofolanga born circa 1875
gggrandmother - Mounukiuoleva (Sister of Ma'afu Siotame Fakatulolo) born circa 1850
ggggrandfather - Finaufilimoe'ulie born circa 1820
gx5grandmother - Taufa Hoamofaleono (Mother of King George Tupou I) born circa 1780
gx6grandfather Ma'afu Maluotaufa (Ma'afu kui) born circa 1752 he married a chiefly woman called Lataifale'aka the daughter of Tu'i Ha'ateiho Havea Tungua (Dungua in Fiji) and his wife Tu'iava'uta Lekaumoana. This woman Tu'iava'uta was a sister (half-sibling) of Maile Latamai as they shared the same father i.e. Tu'i Pelehake Lekaumoana. Maile Latamai was probably the eldest of Lekaumoana's children and born around the 1720's, he would have left Tonga still relatively young and a warrior in his prime so typically between 25-30 years of age. Hence my dating his arriving in Fiji at about 1755.
I would be keen to hear of the other versions and local Fijian accounts.
it is possible that he made numerous return trips despite accounts of his banishment from Tonga. Henele Ma'afu, Tu'i Halafatai and other Tongan chiefs made many return trips from Tonga to Fiji and back. It is also possible that he never returned to Tonga at all.
100 years is a big difference b/n my dating of his arrival and 1845. It a little puzzling to me as this would not appear to match the known genealogy lists and the order of events. However, I could be wrong.
Mariner and other accounts both european and local speak of many young Tongan Chiefs bored of staying in the peaceful state of their home islands due to the lack of wars in Tonga and would go to Fiji. This would have to have been pre-1799, as Captain Cook noted how peaceful and orderly Tonga was, even naming Ha'apai the Friendly Islands not knowing the Chiefs were scheming to kill him but couldn't decide when LOL...
Could the 1845 Tongan chief have been Finau Fisi, the son of Finau 'Ulukalala II or another Tongan chief, perhaps a son or grandson of Mailelatamai? This would fit the time period and also the period of the rise of Henele Ma'afu as Tu'i Lau.
Mailelatamai must have been a generation earlier as he would have been a contemporary of TK Tuku'aho who was murdered in 1799.
Mailelatamai's father TP Lekaumoana is of the generation of Tuku'aho's father Mumui (and his half brothers TK Tupoulahi and TK/TH Maealiuaki Fatu).
TP Lekaumoana's father Fisilaumali is of the same generation as TK Ma'afuotu'itonga father of Mumui, evidence is that Fisilaumali married Ma'afuotu'itonga's sister Fusipala.
This is the logic of how I worked it out, the dates can also be +-10 years either side...
LOL I am not giving credit to Samoans only I even mentioned Tonga it is you who keeps trying to deny Samoan Influence in Tonga and in Polynesia it is like you were raised in believing that Tonga were the only ones who had strong influence in Polynesia.
Tonga, Niuafo'ou, Niuatoputapu, Tafahi, Niue, The Marquesas, Rotuma, the Cook Islands, Uvea, Futuna, Tokelau, Rurutu, Hawaii, Kiribati, Tuvalu etc many of these islands claim original rulers/Ancestors came from SAMOA.
Hawaii King David Kalakaua's list of Hawaiian Kings (This is his exact list):
Pilikaeae ..........From SAMOA ( with PA'AO ).....1095 to 1120 AD.
Kukohau ..........1120 to 1145
Kaniuhi ..........145 to 1170
Kanipahu ..........1170 to 1195
Kalapana (including the usurpation of Kamaiole)........1195 to 1220
Kahaimoelea ..........1220 to 1260
Kalaunuiohua ..........1260 to 1300
Kuaiwa ..........1300 to 1340
Kahoukapu ..........1340 to 1380
Kauholanuimahu ..........1380 to 1415
Kiha ..........1415 to 1455
Liloa ..........1455 to 1485
Hakau ..........1485 to 1490
Umi ..........1490 to 1525
Kealiiokaloa ..........1525 to 1535
Keawenui ..........1535 to 1565
Kaikilani and Lonoikamakahiki ..........1565 to 1595
Keakealanikane ..........1595 to 1625
Keakamahana ..........1625 to 1655
Keakealaniwahine ..........1655 to 1685
Keawe and sister ..........1685 to 1720
Alapanui ..........1720 to 1754
Kalaniopuu ..........1754 to 1782
Kamehameha I ..........1782 to 1819
Kamehameha II -- Liholiho ..........1819 to 1824
Kaahumanu regency ..........1824 to 1833
Kamehameha III - Kauikeaouli ..........1833 to 1854
Kamehameha IV ..........1854 to 1863
Kamehameha V.- Lot ..........1863 to 1872
Lunalilo ..........1872 to 1873
Kalakaua ..........1874 to ---
Learn Tahiti History they claim Ancestors from Samoa.
Aotearoa are originally from the COOK Islands. Samoans came into Contact with the Cook Islands through Samoan Karika and his crew from Manu'a Samoa. Samoan Karika ruled RaroTonga giving birth to the Makea Karika Line of Kings.
1st Tui Tonga Ahoeitu son of powerful Samoan Chief Tui Manu'a. (But Tonga insists he was not the son of a Samoan Chief but the son of a sky GOD).
Many Islands in Polynesia claim Ancestors & Ancient rulers were SAMOANS. Like I said before Vai talk to the Tongans from NIUA to tell you the history Tonga leaves out. I hope you know that Tonga, Niuatoputapu, Niuafo'ou & Tafahi & Uvea were originally ruled by SAMOANS have you heard Niuatoputapu, Niuafo'ou, Tafahi & Uvea peoples language? There language is a mix of Samoan & Tongan. I will tell you this though Niuatoputapu, Niuafo'ou & Tafahi out of the rest of the islands of Tonga Anciently had stronger Connections to Samoa rather then to Tonga the reason is because these 3 Tongan Islands, Niuafo'ou, Niuatoputapu, Tafahi were the islands of Tonga that SAMOA Anciently had full control over. (Tonga tends to leave that part of History out as well).
I know you know that alot of Tongans tease the Niuatoputapu, Nuiafo'ou & Tafahi people about being SAMOAN now you know why.
You still haven't answered some of my questions VAI about what Influence of Tonga is apart of SAMOA? Also some info on the first Tui Tonga's because not much said about them.
Just to add on a little bit to the discussion I came across even more islands who speak of Ancient Samoan Influence:
Not only Tonga, Niuafo'ou, Niuatoputapu, Tafahi, Niue, The Marquesas, Rotuma, the Cook Islands, Uvea, Futuna, Tokelau, Rurutu, Hawaii, Kiribati, Tuvalu but also many other islands such as Tikopia, Pukapuka, Nukuoro, Kapingamarangi, Nukumanu, Sikaina all speak of Ancient Samoan Influence.
The more I learn other islands History the more I learn of just how big SAMOAN Influence was in Ancient Polynesia.
I must say brothers that you are both very passionate about your own perspectives of ancient history. The Tongan and Samoan in me wants to wade into the debate but split as to which side to take! I thought that this thread was about connections between us all? My Fijian side is calm and assured knowing that you are both right and both wrong! Forgive me brothers and please don't take this the wrong way, but there is an African proverb (for neutralities sake!) that goes: when two bull elephants fight, only the grass gets hurt!
Uso mo tokoua, "o le ala i le pule le tautua" (Samoan - the path to leadership is service/humility) - "Tonga mo'unga kihe loto" (Tongan - The mountains of Tonga are in the heart) Remember, only God ruled the Pacific and Tagaloa, Tu'i Manu'a, Tu'i Tonga or whoever, were at the end of the day men like you and me.
Let's respect our Fijian hosts on this network with a little bit of understanding, patience and humility fa'amolemole - kataki... afterall, these are traits that signify true nobility in our old ways. Back in the not too distant past these kinds of debates were not held from the safety of a screen and keyboard, but face to face and at the peril of the club and spear as we all know. Lets not escalate things into arguing and conduct unbecomming of men. I know I am only a newcomer here, but it is a little disappointing to see the tone of some of the arguements sliding close to animosity over something that at the end of the day, really doesn't matter.
Our Fijian kin have been very civil and humble in this thread started by our resident and knowledgable Samoan historian and guru Alia. Agree to disagree and move on.
Just to detract and take a new line I wonder if someone could elaborate on the following for me. Fijian traditions talk of a God they called Degei or Ndegei. I came across a very old edition of the Journal of the Polynesian Society with an article that linked this figure to very old settlements in Viti Levu. It argues that Degei was old Fijian for Tagaloa, can anyone comment on this?
In Fijian mythology, Degei (pronounced Ndengei) is a snake-god. He judges newly-dead souls after they pass through one of two caves: Cibaciba or Drakulu. A few he sends to paradise, Burotu. Most others are thrown into a lake, where they will eventually sink to the bottom (Murimuria) to be appropriately rewarded or punished.
Degei hatched an egg from which the first humans came to Earth. He is prominent in the kalou-vu, the Fijian pantheon.
Friedrich Ratzel in The History of Mankind reported in 1896 a religious practice enjoined by Degei that involved tatooing women on the lower part of the body and the thigh, the corner of the mouth, and the finger.
this is very interesting because there has been much conjecture over the origins of the tatau in Samoa with two primary versions (i. two women from Fiji ii. Fitiuta in Manu'a). It would be great to explore the links because I have a genealogical chart that shows the two women called Tilafaiga and Taema are of the Tagaloa line, they brought the tatau to Falealupo Savaii from Fiti (Fiji or Manu'a depending on the version).
'Alia will know more about this than me but I recall from reading "History of Samoa" by Br Fred Henry many years ago that the two women were actually sisters and Siamese twins joined at the hip (snake-like i.e. Degei?) perhaps the result of in-breeding or kitetama in Tonga? They were apparently violently separated. Tilafaiga remained in Falealupo and had a child to another demi-god Savea Siule'o (Havea Hikule'o in Tonga - also god of the underwold in Tonga and the Tu'i Tonga was this god's high priest/earthly representative like the Pope during the Inasi festival). Their child was the famous godess of war Nafanua who married back into the same Tagaloa line - kitetama (a Hawaiian practice called Ni'opau? elevated the blood rank many times over). Taema became a feared devil-like apparition who travelled to Tutuila and lived there. This is why Tutuila is also known as Motu 'o Taema where people were banished at one point at the mercy of Taema.
Kitetama (brother-sister/cross cousin marriages) became rife in Tonga soon after TT Momo in a bizzare turn of events that saw the Tu'i Tonga becoming increasingly threatened at home. In order to elevate the rank of his line further, Momo's son Tu'itatui (mother was not of exceedingly high rank and already mothered children to the Chief of Malapo, her name was Nua daugher of Lo'au - possibly a foreigner from Eastern Polynesia/Hawaii?) is said to have raped his sister Tu'i Tonga Fefine Fatafehi on top of the Ha'amonga 'a Maui. This is why he was overthrown and chased out by some accounts and some even say he was killed by the his half-brothers and full brothers of Fatafehi. Testament to this is the fact that to this day there is debate over where his body is buried. Some say in 'Eua, others in Malapo (mother's kin) and more recently in Felemea/'Uiha.
I have also heard accounts from old people in kava cirlces in Tonga say that he died in 'Eua but his body was not accepted there for burial so his rotted corpse was taken from place to place and to this day no one knew exactly where he was finally buried. Recent excavations in Felemea uncovered bones of a giant who stood over 8 feet tall. Noble Fielakepa of the time, took pictures with the remains and it is believed to be that of Tu'itatui, in a small island in Ha'apai buried in a humble mound. Niutoua people have accounts of Tu'itatui being a huge man and if you go to the Ha'amonga 'o Maui meaning burden of maui (Ha'amo = a burden taken on your shoulders), at the back is his seat made of rock called the Makafa'akinanga, he must have had a huge back because it is massive.
The legends of Samoa describe how two sisters, Tilafaiga and Taema were sent from Manu'a to Fiji to visit the daughter of King Tuimanu'a. While there, they were presented with a gift from the royal family of King Tuifiti which was a tattooing instrument. While swimming home they carefully held onto their precious gift while singing a chant that the Fijians had taught them translating it into Samoan. In English, the chant would say "women are tattooed and men are not."
They were very exhausted when they arrived home and in their confusion they reversed the chant singing the first part last. When they reached Savai'i, they were carried into the high chief's guest house and were treated like royalty until they have recovered from their swim. Before continuing their swim to Manu'a, they offered to the chiefs and the people of Savai'i the tattooing instruments that have been a gift from King Tuifiti.
The people of Savai'i started at once to tattoo the young men as they had learned from the reversed chant. Tattooing became the mark of distinction among the youths of Samoa except Manu'a where the king ruled against the practice.
The original song was to tattoo the woman that is why some of the designs of the Samoan Women Tattoo have some Fijian Designs but the male Tattoo of Samoa doesn't.
Bro I was wondering if Tui Manu'a (FOLASA) was the same person in Tonga known as Tui FOLAHA? Tongan History states Folaha had power in Tonga before Ahoeitu the 1st Tui Tonga. This is just adding on from the Fale Faka Manuka or Manu'a Houses built in Tonga.
Some of these rulers of Tonga named here could be from Manu'a.
1) Talafale, Tu'i Ha'atalafale.
2) Tu'i Loloko.
4) Tu'i Folaha.
6) 'Ahoe'itu, who became the 1st Tu'i Tonga son of 'Ilaheva
1) Talafale means voice of the house or advisor in Samoan etc but could it be another word for Tulafale which in Samoa means High Talking Chief or Orator? Tonga had no Royal Line until Ahoeitu and the only Royal Line that was already established in Polynesia was the Tui Manu'a Line of Chiefs. If Talafale was an adviser the question is who sent him?