People Who Lie Believe They Are Telling The Truth!

I heard that most people who lie believe they are telling the truth...mosi saraga noqu head. Kevaka Edina na statement ya then its really sad, but can that be true. I now realise why some people are so adamant in what they say even if I know its a load of rubbish. Is this really true and what do you think?

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Ana ...it is called Cognitive Disorder

It is sometimes called True-Believer Syndrome.

For many people, the will to believe at times overrides the ability to think critically about the evidence for and against a belief. Since by definition those suffering from true-believer syndrome are irrationally committed to their beliefs, there is no point in arguing with them. Evidence and logical argument mean nothing to them. Such people are incapable of being persuaded by evidence and argument that their notions are in error.

 

Kinds of true-believers:

1. The type of person who believes in paranormal or supernatural things contrary to the evidence. Their faith is unshakable even in the face of overwhelming evidence against them,

2. The cult follower. Their belief is not based on evidence, but on devotion to a person. That devotion can be so great that even the most despicable behaviour by one's guru can be rationalized.

3. The type of person who is irrationally committed to a cause. (terrorist attacks on civilians, murdering doctors who perform abortions, or following a guru like Jim Jones even to the point of murder or suicide.)

 

One possible explanation for true-believer syndrome is that the belief satisfies an emotional need that is stronger than any other emotional need. Why some people have such a strong emotional need to believe in something that rational people recognize as false is perhaps unanswerable, but it is clear that they are based on emotions and feelings, not reason and evidence.

-True Believers and Utter Madness (1995)

 

An excellent definition jerex thanks for that. The definition however will make people like me  guilty according to the first structural type of true believers (1).

1. The type of person who believes in paranormal or supernatural things contrary to the evidence. Their faith is unshakable even in the face of overwhelming evidence against them,

I am a Christian, I believe in God, I believe in the Supernatural, I also believe in the power of prayer and "Spiritual Warfare"...I believe in demons and the fight we have to go through daily and of course the wickedness of my heart...

All the aforementioned unwavering belief of mine made me  guilty according to the "Cognitive Disorder" That curbs me into a predetermine choice  "should I align my belief to fit the  above mentioned "Empirically  biased definition or should I be content with being branded as an unenlightened superstitious ignorant intuitive person.

Contrary to the Evidence

For those who are totally sold out to "Empirical" scientific method rules the world are stuck with the notion that if it cannot be proven using the 5 senses it should be discarded. So how can I argue with a person who is totally inspired by "What you see is what you believe"? I am a "What I see and don't see is what I believe" person...That is a clash of philosophical reasoning.

Before I am lost and carried away in the details, if you (Jerex ) believe in God ( I know you are unless I am wrong) and Anamaria who also believes in God...at least from what she wrote in her website...Does that make all of us a LIar? according to the definition of " Kinds of true believers...(1)

This brings us back again to the question...."Who is a liar?

To quote the  contention you heard Anamaria

"I heard that most people who lie believe they are telling the truth"

Who is a liar?

Are they lying based on evidence you have about a fact?

Are they lying because what they believe  contradicts your ideology?

Are they lying intentionally?

Are they lying because of their ignorant?

I could go on babbling with questions after questions which will lead to more questions and questions for the questions for those questions questions...So my conclusion would be...

Depending on which school of thoughts and ideologies that influence your definition of "What is the truth" 

A will think that B is lying (according to A's definition of what is the Truth)

B will also think that A is lying (according to B's definition of what is the Truth)

This is when I usually pull out of a discussion whether it is here at ( Matavuvale) or somewhere else and pray that John 8:32 will help both of us.

Thanx Jerex and Seruvatu for your input...I do understand about the different beliefs but what disturbs me most is when someone says something which can be proven wrong and continues to say its true  eg a woman who believes shes pregnant until nine months and we can see that she isn't then she decides to prolong her term of pregnancy due to miscalculating her months ...its obvious that she isn't pregnant but she says she is. I try to understand this concept and if it works in these situations than all I can say, it saddens my heart because such individuals we cannot help. There are many more examples which do not link to religion or any other beliefs, maybe Jerexs explanation says it all. I believe we have no right to judge people but I really don't like liars and I hate to mingle with them but if this is a syndrome than all we can do is pray for them and try to accept them for who they are...since they do not realise what they are doing. I see it as cancerous similar to jealousy...Lord do help us all.

Jerex bula vinaka taciqu, dua ga noqu taro.

Do politicians and lawyers lie or simply manipulate(twist) the truth to promote their agenda? And where do they fit in the "kind of true believers" list?

The reason I'm asking is this: if a Christian is contemplating being either of these profession then he/she will have to be prepared to do what may go against your conscious or belief. 

Vinaka.

 

Bula vinaka bro. Good question, but to answer it is not as simple as it might seem.

First lets look at your question and the premis of the question. First up, the question is based on a false premis that "all politicians and lawyers are liars" ....lol. Secondly, adding the word "Christian" to those professions makes it a different ball-game altogether.

 

This is one of those burning issues most people cannot come to grips with when dealing with these two professions, especially when these people are "Christians". Let's not jump the gun and say or infer that all Politicians and Lawyers are liars..... although there are some very unscrupulous Politicians and Bush Lawyers around.....lols. Many of us, as soon as we hear the words 'Politician' and/or 'Lawyer' mentioned, the first thing that come to kind is "Liar".

For a Christian Lawyer, it is no doubt that questions like, "How can you actually try to get a horrible criminal off just to commit a crime again?" and "How can you not be fully truthful and honest in the courtroom?" and related moral issues are especially serious especially when they are trying to present an upright moral image and a testimony of religious faith.

It should be understood that for them, these questions involve substantial biblical and spiritual issues. It is therefore important to define who "Christians" are and who "non-Christians" are. Equally important also to understand the working relationships between Christians and also between Christians and non-Christians or people of no religion. What also need to be understood is the difference in the "belief structures" among Christians and non-Christian people.

All of us probably believe that we know what it means to be a lawyer. Do we also know what it is to be a Christian? Putting together these two words, Christian and Lawyer, we actually create an apparently direct and significant conflict for the Christian Lawyer.

I may have raised more questions here than answers, but I believe that this ought to be clarified first.

Some believe that to be both a Christian and a Lawyer, individuals must separate personal faith and professional work. Others believe that individuals cannot be both a Lawyer and a Christian. These beliefs presume that there is some irreconcilable conflict between being a Lawyer and being a Christian. This presumption is totally unfounded.

 

For a Christian contemplating becoming one of these professions, I would encourage you to go for it. Of course there are risks and consequences that one may have to face - that is part and parcel of the job. We need to understand and maybe make some assumptions as to what it means to be a Christian.

It is apparent that "Christian" relates to Christ. We shall assume the Christian Lawyer or a Christian who wants to become a Lawyer or Attorney, to be one who has accepted Jesus Christ as the Son of God and as Saviour, who is born again, who knows God in a personal way, and believes that God is involved and gives direction in his daily life. We know that the Apostle Paul makes a distinction between Christians and non-Christians in biblical terms of "natural man" and "spiritual man". (read 1 Cor 2:12-15)

The ability to recognize biblical and spiritual issues immediately sets the Christian in disparity with non-Christians. This difference usually does not create direct conflict in legal work because that work involves primarily secular law and factual issues. Generally the rules of legal ethics require that a lawyer can zealously represent the client within the bounds of the law, provided that he never obstructs justice. Many lawyers push the boundaries between proper and improper courtroom behaviour - at the outer boundary of "zealous advocacy" and the front edge of "obstruction of justice." Therefore, ethical and moral lawyers including both Christians and non-Christians, can represent clients who may or may not be guilty - all without any reference to religious values.

Yes, that would probably justify what lawyers do in the legal system - arguments and responses may be technically correct, sound good and partially satisfy the intellect, but I assume there would be "nagging doubts" in the hearts of many Christians. This is probably the reason why many of us have doubts about the integrity and morals of lawyers and politicians.

To help those budding Christian lawyers truly understand just why he can or cannot work to set a "guilty" person free, or cannot use deception in the courtroom, we must go deeper than man's idea of "rightness." We must understand God's righteousness. Without the reality of God's presence in their daily lives, lawyers could and probably would act as would a natural lawyer. Therefore, as Christian lawyers, when responding to questions or making a case, they would need to examine the effect of having the Most High God in their professional lives, that is, the effect of not separating professional lives, morality, and religion. For the Christian, this higher calling requires a totally different look at the profession and the practice of law.

Spiritual Christians believe that God calls them to His work in specific tasks or professions. God calls some to be lawyers. Christian lawyers believe that when God called them, He knew what lawyers must do within the rules of the profession.

The great irony of this is that God's plan for the client may actually be imprisonment, or the loss of property, or even salvation before the death penalty. But the Christian lawyer cannot know that purpose in advance. By not knowing, God thus permits them to provide the zealous advocacy required by the system and still accomplish His purpose.

The spiritually empowered Christian lawyer enters the courtroom possessing a truly great advantage, as Paul explains ... 1 Cor 2:12-16

Notice, the spiritual man judges all things. In dealing with the natural jury, the spiritual lawyer must use the ways of the natural man in order for natural man to hear. The spiritual lawyer can judge both natural and spiritual things. Also notice, from the text above, that the spiritual lawyer is not judged by any natural person because natural persons cannot discern divine revelation. The Christian lawyer must operate in the "natural" when facing natural fact-finders, while simultaneously operating in the "spiritual" with the mind of Christ. 

In the conflicts of the courtroom, this demonstrates the understanding of spiritual and natural man and a striking picture of the Christian lawyers place in the world and in God's kingdom.

Yes, you can be a Christian and a lawyer too, and when you know your place and standing in the kingdom of God, your conscience will be clear and there will never be a situation where you would even contemplate going against your belief.

Na tevoro na dau vosa vakacaca.

Vinaka Joni....are you referring to Pst Bose's question or the discussion in general?

Yadra Jerex, 

                 I am referring to the mirror; Galatians 5: 19 -21.

A University lecturer once said that some lies are good but according to the bible all lies are sinful. I believe the lecturer was referring to the intension of why someone was not telling the truth 

Vinaka Master Seruvatu...

 

Can I expand on that statement....

The type of person who believes in paranormal or supernatural things contrary to the evidence.

You sure can get lost and carried away in the details of the definition or notion that you stated ….."Empirical" scientific method rules”….in trying to define what that #1 type (true believers) meant.

For your information....... Yes, I am a Christian and also believe in the supernatural just like you. The point in contention here, I would think,  would be the statement “contrary to the evidence”. The evidence of the supernatural for me is not defined or need to be substantiated by “empirical scientific method rules”.

The evidence I have that would explain or substantiate the supernatural is MYSELF, my life. I am a born again Christian and it took a supernatural happening for me to be born again by the Holy Spirit. It is a supernatural happening for me to be able to live a Christian way of life – very different from the “logical reasoning” way of life that may be explained by the “empirical scientific method rules”, if you know what I mean. The change in my life from the day I gave my life to my God defies any human logic..... it was a supernatural change, many moons ago, that took place in me. Fast forward to now.... that supernatural change has never faded....

The supernatural God I believe has also given me the power and authority to do supernatural things. No logical reasoning or scientific methods will be able to explain the paranormal or the supernatural I believe….
When I pray for a sick person and my supernatural God removes the cancerous tumour from the cancer patient or when an evil spirit is cast out from a demon possessed person ….all logical reasoning or scientific explanations are thrown out the window….that is the supernatural evidence I, as a Christian, have to explain what I believe, with reference and in contrast to what the #1 type (true-believer) means.

In short, the evidence I have is not the same as the evidence that is understood by logical reasoning or by scientific rules.

Logical reasoning and scientific explanations cannot make me a Liar because the evidence of the supernatural happening is there for all to see….the healed cancer patient and the person who was previously demon possessed. I AM a living testament of the supernatural God that I believe in. The complete change in my way of life defies logic, that is, if you knew who I was before I came to believe in this supernatural God I have come to know.

That is what sets me apart from one who suffers from True-Believer syndrome.
There is nothing to feel guilty about.

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